NEW YORK — As the president and chief operating officer of upscale mall landlord Taubman Realty Group, Bill Taubman has a bird’s eye view of consumer habits, which have become more unpredictable since the pandemic.

But Taubman, which owns, manages or leases 26 malls primarily in the U.S. and is a joint venture with Simon Property Group, is more fortunate than plenty of other mall landlords. That’s because it’s positioned in the sweet spot of mall retailing.

While many shopping centers in lower income areas are struggling, upscale mall operators like Taubman have thrived and have been sought after by brands like men’s activewear label Rhone and Wayfair that got their start online but are looking to expand their physical presence.

For example, the occupancy rate at Taubman’s Mall at Short Hills, New Jersey, which has such tenants as Fendi, Gucci and Bloomingdale’s, is 97%. That compares to the occupancy rate of 89% for overall malls as of last year’s third quarter, according to the National Council of Real Estate Investment Fiduciaries.

Overall, indoor mall traffic on Black Friday was up almost threefold compared with the daily average from Jan. 1 through Nov. 24, according to Placer.ai, which tracks people’s movements based on cellphone usage. Still, mall visits last year remain below the 2022 level, a reflection of a wider retail downturn rather than reduced interest in shopping centers, Placer.ai said.

AP recently interviewed Taubman about a variety of topics including weak and hot spots of retailing, the state of leasing, and trends in luxury retailing. The interview has been edited for clarity and length.

Q. How did the holiday season fare?

A. We actually had a pretty good Christmas. I don’t think it was a blowout Christmas. My guess…slightly up a couple of points for the year. But we’re up over 30% in sales per square foot over 2019. So the fact that we’re stabilizing that huge increase in sales is really the big message, more than what the comparison is between 2022 and 2023.

Q. What are some of the hot and weak pockets?

A. Home is weaker. People are not buying homes, therefore they’re not furnishing homes in the way that they were. Clearly, luxury, which was weak in the first two thirds of the year, has started to recover and is showing increases now where it was showing decreases through September. I think the consumer is feeling better. Luxury is very much tied to the stock market.

Q. Anything surprising?

A. Core mainstream apparel brands within the mall — Anthropologie, Banana Republic and Gap — are showing substantial strength in a way that they haven’t for more than a decade.

Q. What’s driving demand for lease space?

A. The biggest difference now is that we have so much tenant demand in the best malls. And it’s driven by all these direct-to-consumer brands that now realize they can’t be viable. They can’t make money unless they have a brick-and-mortar presence. It really started coming out of COVID. Then, it just accelerated tremendously.

Q. What’s a big trend in luxury retailing?

A. (Luxury) brands are continuing to want to control their own distribution, and they’re moving out of the department stores where they make sense. You see it in Louis Vuitton, Chanel.

Q. How are these upscale brands adjusting to customers’ hybrid and remote work patterns?

A. In pre-COVID, they couldn’t really sell apparel in the suburbs. They sold apparel in the urban stores. Then COVID-19 occurred. The customer wasn’t driving in the city, so they put the apparel in the suburban stores and voila, they started to sell it. So that meant that they needed more space. And it also meant that they were going to sell apparel, that they probably needed a flagship.

Q. There’s been a lot of media coverage of “smash and grab” theft. Have you seen theft go down at your malls?

A. I think people aren’t wearing masks as they walk in the centers, so it’s much more difficult for these people to obscure themselves. That’s a huge difference, and I think we’ve all got a better understanding of what’s going on. I think it would be better if the brands, the luxury brands, particularly did a better job of coming up with technology to strap down the goods without damaging them. They worry that if they have too big of a wire that holds the bags down that it’ll damage the bags. But the reverse is that a lot of the stuff that holds the bags down can be cut with a wire cutter very easily.